Can we really roast like the pros????

[SusanJoM]

A friend sent me some Colombian coffee roasted by KUMA
 http://www.kumacoffee.com/) 
The one he sent isn't listed here, but it is Francy Torres, Colombia from Narino)  I am amazed at the  degree of nuance, flavor and sweetness, in such a light roast.

Have you have success matching the quality of a pro-roaster with your HUKY? All styles? Light to french or just certain styles?

Can we really match what the big guys do or will we always be settling for what our HUKYs can do?

[Johnny4lsu]

I'd say yes, but it's a heck of a lot harder and also more challenging being consistent.

[edtbjon]

I've had the opportunity to compare roasts of the same bean with a professional roaster. The only hints I had was taking a peep at one of their roasts, so that I had some idea of a good roast degree (at the very end of 1C, which is what I would have started my assessments with anyhow). The bean was a very tasty and very high quality Kenyan, which is an absolute joy to roast. It's very dense and it can take a lot of heat, resulting in a very vivid and concentrated 1C. Anyhow, I tried varying the midphase (Maillard phase) at 15-20 sec increments, which certainly gave different results, even though the drop temp was very close to my target in all my test roasts. (I try to use the advice given by Rob Hoos in his book "Modulating ...".)
So, with three profiling roasts, I got quite close to their "final" result in one of them (which was my favourite too). Their roast was better, but I'm pretty certain that if I had to perfect my roast profile, I could improve on that with smaller changes, finding the sweet spot. As Johnny points out, the tricky part with the Huky is consistency (... and it's very hard to fine-tune a roast profile, unless you can be consistent).

[Turboner]

Hello edtbjon,

Do you mind sharing your roast profile with us?

[goodolarchie]

Full Disclosure - I'm a Seattle guy and Kuma is my spirit animal, they are how I got into both Africans and roasting.  Mark Barony is as good as they get, I've met the guy, and I would put some of Kuma's best roasts against anybody, and it has less to do with the roast.

What I got from talking to him is that his roasting and sourcing philosophy was heavily shaped from spending significant time growing up in Kenya, before moving to Seattle and building his little empire.  He devotes so much time to identifying a uniquely amazing bean from microlots, and then spends  equal time bringing out the best profile of the bean without trying to inflict his will, allowing the bean terroir to dictate the roast. 

Where coffee is chemistry, Kuma is alchemy.  I'd love for my full time job to be touring around sampling from small growers, but I can't, so I doubt I'll ever reach that level of bean thought leadership and quality, let alone roast quality.

[edtbjon]

Hello edtbjon,

Do you mind sharing your roast profile with us?

Yes, of course...

[Dogalish]

How do the more experienced people on this forum think that their roasting knowledge compares to that of a professional roaster?

I spend a lot of time reading the posts on here and it seems to me that a lot of people posting have an in-depth knowledge of roasting theory that may be comparable to a pro (or at least not that far off).  Obviously to be a pro you need to be an expert in a whole array of roasting related subjects, but purely in terms of roasting theory, how far behind a pro roaster do the more experienced people on here think they are? 

[SusanJoM]

Full Disclosure - I'm a Seattle guy and Kuma is my spirit animal, they are how I got into both Africans and roasting.  Mark Barony is as good as they get, I've met the guy, and I would put some of Kuma's best roasts against anybody, and it has less to do with the roast.

What I got from talking to him is that his roasting and sourcing philosophy was heavily shaped from spending significant time growing up in Kenya, before moving to Seattle and building his little empire.  He devotes so much time to identifying a uniquely amazing bean from microlots, and then spends  equal time bringing out the best profile of the bean without trying to inflict his will, allowing the bean terroir to dictate the roast. 

Where coffee is chemistry, Kuma is alchemy.  I'd love for my full time job to be touring around sampling from small growers, but I can't, so I doubt I'll ever reach that level of bean thought leadership and quality, let alone roast quality.

Sitting here and drinking another cup of Kuma, I can't help but agree with your assessment, but my query has more to do with whether our HUKYs could do it IF we had the perfect bean.  I'm a tad skeptical myself.  I love my HUKY and it will probably be my last roaster, but I have this suspicion that there is some quality which only a big huge well insulated piece of steel could deliver that maybe our tin cans just can't? 

And on my next cup I have to wonder if our agility with such a light thermal mass roaster might give us an edge?

Oh it's so complicated 

[Turboner]

I think the short answer is, nobody really knows.

…But I like to feel good about myself and my equipment and I’m always my biggest cheerleader so I’ll say YES! After all, these things are unofficially endorsed by Roaster Joe Marrocco (he owns one) and Thom Owens (said if he didn’t have SM he’d be the guy roasting with a Huky).

I think we forget at times that roasting really is trial and error, also that professional roasters get paid and have the time & unlimited resources to find the best flavor profile of a bean. Whereas, we order maybe 2-3 lbs of one bean, get it to where it is good enough and then we move on to the next one. This is the cheerleader in me speaking by the way.

[hankua]

It's a great question; almost like a zen koan.

My short answer is no; but also agree with Turboner. Is the glass half empty or half full?

We can't duplicate a Probat/Diedrich/San Franciscan; how close can we get?

Huky forum has has roasting competition where the entries were very well received by the judges; which leads me to think we're pretty close.

The Huky with all its drawbacks is still top of its class; which is a hobbyist/home coffee roaster. There is another class of small machines 300g-500g what I call professional level. Fuji Royal, Mini500, North 500, Santoker, HB M3, BC-300, etc. They all are integrated with chaff collectors, built in bean coolers, esentially a miniaturized professional coffee roaster.

[SusanJoM]

Excellent thoughts from everyone.
I'd like to hear even more.

[Turboner]

Selling fresh roasted coffee beans and pour overs at a farmers market in the heart of downtown LA, puts me in a unique position because I am able to get immediate feedback from our customers. The farmers market is literally surrounded by cafes which either, offer beans from the who’s who of specialty coffee roasting or already have a good reputation for quality coffee:

Blue Bottle
Verve
Heart
Coava
Ruby
Madcap
Parlor
Stumptown
Intelligentsia
49th Parallel
Four Barrel
Counter Culture
Ritual
Groundworks
Demitasse
Sightglass
Mi Tierra Mia


Opening Soon:
Manufactory
PCP with their internationally known rotation of roasters

Etc.

Not a day goes by at the market where customers from all walks of life: local/tourist, homeless/downtown loft & maserratti owner, young/young at heart would taste our coffee and comment on how good it is.

I’ve had a professor from Caltech buy a bag of Sumatran from us for espresso, write me an email a few days later and tell me that was the best tasting coffee she’s ever made at home and proceeded to ask for espresso parameters, as to not waste any more coffee trying to dial their equipment in. Another repeat customer is the board president of a non-profit group that manages some of the largest farmers markets in Southern California (Brentwood, Pacific Palisades, Melrose, etc. ), tell me our coffee was the best tasting he has had in the last couple years.  As soon as a spot in his Westlake Village market opened up, he was bending over backwards trying to get us to sell coffee there. I no longer worry about whether our coffee can compete, I just make sure the coffee is fresh roasted (roasted beans are 2 days old, pour over beans are 4 days old, and >4 days go to cold brew) and our customer service is nice and tight.

I’m still not sure where our small little start up is heading to, but at least I can focus on growing the business without worrying about the quality of the coffee.

P.S.

Gauging the experience, technical roasting knowledge, and the ability to control the Huky of this group, I would consider myself to be at the bottom end of the spectrum. Also, we source/will source our beans from Bodhi Leaf, Coffee Shrub, La Bodega, and Royal.

[PabloElFlamenco]

I'm certain my present knowledge about coffee, and the roasting of it (and I would include...brewing) is mid-range sketchy.

Reading all the comments above, I get the distinct impression that some of you guys live in coffee haven. In parallel, it seems that (some parts of) the USA have gone from Maxwell House/Folgers straight into Italian-beating mount Olympus.  I know that is probably misrepresentation of reality.

I'm pretty isolated.  Belgium is not exactly coffee haven.  We have some of the best restaurants in the world here, really brilliant, where they serve "acceptable" coffee, I often suspect it to be Nespresso!  Restaurants don't seem to have the time necessary to concentrate on setting a good cup. There is very little interest for coffee, except in young people's circles.

The coffee I roast on the Huky tastes better than 99% of the professional roasted coffees I have ever tried in the Brussels/Antwerp area.  Yet I only roast pretty basic types of Brasil and Yirgacheffe, I don't experiment much...

I would heartily invite any one to dismiss my present appreciation, on the basis of ...getting together... would be the most scientific method!

[hankua]

I signed up for mistobox for several years and got 50g x 4 every month from different roasters. For the most part the samples were excellent, none light roasted either. Good education pro roasters especially if one wants to emulate the taste.

Bean Box has something similar; enough to make one or two batches of filter coffee.

[edtbjon]

I've been talking to a few professionals here in Sweden and of course they are using professional gear, on which they are able to duplicate roasts within seconds to various roasting milestones. But the real key is to learn how to taste the product, i.e the coffee. Most of the "answer" (if there is any answer... ) lies in being able to fine-tune the roast, which is done by adjusting the control pattern (the amount and timing of heat and air) and then being able to repeat that in the next roast ... or adjust it to taste. But what dictates the changes is IMO what you want to keep or change in the taste respectively.
Now if someone think that I'm pointing towards the Rob Hoos booklet "Modulating ...", you're spot on. He mentions more or less the whole flavour chart in his book, which indicates that the flavour is the key. From that my conclusion is that you do have to learn how to taste and spot those sometimes very subtle nuances in order to be successful in adjusting a roast profile. Cupping is the standard procedure, but maybe a bit messy. A nice composed drip brew, keeping the weight ratio and timing within seconds is a good substitute. But you still have to focus on the taste and the components of the coffee, not just enjoy a good Joe.
The last part is then to control the roaster. This is the tricky part with the Huky, due to the lack of thermal mass. This is doable, but you have to find a good steady basic roast profile to start with, from which you easily can adjust the various segments of roast.
In short, to succeed with a professional result, you do need to take a professional approach to the task.