Scott Rao - ROR rate of rise "the flick"

[Gregr]

A half dozen roasts ago I started using Hank's recommendation for starting out with the stove low then raising it up high at the turning point and then lowering it incrementally on the way to first crack. This is the best one so far, but I still haven't eliminated the flick. One minute before first crack I lowered the heat to 1.0kPa and once first crack had been popping for about 30 seconds I increased the heat to 2.0kPa for 30 seconds in my attempt to remove that dip in the RoR. It works a little bit but not enough so I'm ready to abandon that strategy and move on to... ? I've got 2 ideas- first, raise the heat longer or stronger or earlier during first crack, or go in to first crack with more momentum and dropping the heat faster, more abruptly. Suggestions are welcome.

[SusanJoM]

That is one pretty profile. Have you tasted it yet?

My first flickless roast....Whoopee

Nope.  Gotta hold out for a few days.  It did smell wonderful when I degassed it this morning, though.  I'm quite hopeful :-))

[SusanJoM]

There is a very interesting post at H-B today where EndlessCycles has done two side by side roasts, one with and one without a flick.

His graphs and profiles are interesting, and the takeaway from the post seemed to me to be distilled in these two sentences

Keep in mind that he [Scott Rao] was describing what happens when roasters let ROR flick up and stay up for a while, and then reduce overall development time to keep from finishing too hot. ....

It does give me some confidence in thinking that it is worthwhile to try to keep my roasts from accelerating once first crack is dying down, even for a roast that will otherwise hit all my targets.

[thusband]

I did two roasts today based on SusanJoM's profile of steadily decreasing gas beginning at 315 F.  Her curve showed no flick.  Both of mine, however, definitely had one.  She has a perforated drum while mine is solid so there's that.  I've done roasts without the flick so I can't figure it out. When I saw a hint of rise in the ET temp during FC I cut the gas to zero and tried increasing the fan but the BT temp jumped anyway.  Maybe I need to cut the gas earlier but head into FC with more heat.

[SusanJoM]

I cut the gas to zero and tried increasing the fan

If you're willing to try it again, try it without increasing the fan.
I'd guess that that's what drove your BT up.

Susan

[thusband]

If you're willing to try it again, try it without increasing the fan.
I'd guess that that's what drove your BT up.

Susan

I will on Monday. It'll be different beans which throws another variable in the mix.

[edtbjon]

As Susan and others have pointed out before... The Huky behaves very different when comparing setups. (Perforated drum in Susans case and Solid for e.g. me and thusband.)
We can duplicate e.g. the BT profile, but need different strategies to get there.
Personally I try to use a bit more fan all through the roast, bumping the fan up to at least 50% (Variac) when entering 1C and then some 45-60sec into 1C I cut down the heat to 20-30%. I then try to counteract that flick with even more fan (and I usually cut the heat down to say 10% too). At this stage of the roast it's a delicate balancing act, cut the heat a little bit too much and the roast will stall. Keep a bit too much heat and there will be a very pronounced flick.

[thusband]

Thanks, edtbjon, I'll give that a try. On my second roast I did bump the fan up to 75% (Variac) throughout the roast and the flick was less than the first roast although still pronounced.  I'll try cutting heat sooner.

[rvtech]

Is it possible to get into the second cracks without a Flick?

[edtbjon]

Just hang in there and work on controlling your roaster. I'm still having some difficulties with this particular stage. And yes, rvtech, going into 2C without a flick is very doable. I'd even say it's a bit easier, as I can go into 1Cs (First Crack Start) with a bit more energy as I'm intending to take the roast a bit further. Going into 1Cs with more energy gives more room to gradually lower the heat without stalling the roast.
Another part of "the problem" is that, as we're discussing Scott Rao's way of roasting and his commandments, trying to have at least 20% development time. Trying to create say a light City roast with 20% dev. time without neither flicking nor stalling is indeed a challenge. (I've managed that a couple of times, producing super sweet juicy roasts, but I guess some of the nice acidic flavours evaporates from the long dev.time... Next challenge... )
To finish off about controlling the roaster. More or less the first two months with the Huky gave me nothing more than frustration and compost beans. (I came from a pushbutton GeneCafe, which produced decent roasts.) Then either me and/or the roaster got broken in and things fell into place.

[rvtech]

Makes sense.....I have yet to even be able to get a second crack. I get nervous and drop before I get there. This "Flick" thread has altered the entire roast for me.

[hankua]

I wouldn't worry about the flick unless one had excellent control of the Huky. Learning how to control the ROR during the RD phase is challenging enough. Too fast and one blows thru development, too slow and it can stall. If your roasting light, ROR needs to be a very slow rise, FC+ with @3:00 RD uses a different strategy. The drying times for light roasts generally is longer, whereas espresso roasts can have a shorter one and longer ramp and development.

Roasting to Vienna is pretty challenging, we could have a separate thread on that. I'm still struggling with roasting dark without tasting horrible.