Huky Forum
HUKY 500 (T, J, SOLID, PERF) => Roasting => Topic started by: Chert on May 18, 2017, 07:16:22 AM
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First graph is perforated drum. The espresso had pop of flavor amidst sweetness and richness. The repeat on the perforated comes close. The solid version is too acidic, lacks the pop. The bean is Sweet Marias Colombia Urrao. I enjoy it quite well.
Second graph is attempt to replicate, perforated drum.
And third graph is solid drum, trying to match same profile.
I am going to look at this to try to learn something as time allows. And I invite comments and thoughts.
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Thank you Chert ! ! !
This is a first for us, right? Having a perf/solid comparison?
I'm glad someone with more expertise than I took it on.
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Thank you Chert ! ! !
This is a first for us, right? Having a perf/solid comparison?
I'm glad someone with more expertise than I took it on.
iT DOESN'T REALLY SHOW ANY (oops - sorry about the capslock) thing, but I did enjoy the roasts from the perforated drum. Also insulated like my solid drum roaster. I roasted 15 batches with the perforated. I would describe the comparison in my unexact way as "non-inferior" I enjoyed teh coffee as well as from the solid. Impossible to say if better or not as good.
These profiles are quite simiilar. Too bad I did not save smidges of all three for a direct compare. I am still comparing the two roasted on the same day.
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I found the solid was a bit tastier as espresso this morning. And I am enjoying them much more now than early week. So I guess they are now at peak of rest.
So many variable. My subjective impression is that the H1 has done marginally better, overall with this coffee, these profiles.
Obviously, it proves nothing... but very fun to compare even so subjectively.
I am not sure if I made clear at the start. Both roasters are insulated and the perforated drum was spun at the rate an 18 volt dc power supply turns it (40 rpm?), the solid at 54 rpm.
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Here's that insulated perforated H1 back in Santa Rosa again
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Does insulating make a noticeable difference in heat retention? Does it take less power to maintain temp?
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The timings of the roast would lead to severe underdevelopment in my solid drum. If it doesn't in the perforated setup that is very interesting!
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The timings of the roast would lead to severe underdevelopment in my solid drum. If it doesn't in the perforated setup that is very interesting!
Interesting.
I'm drinking the one from the solid drum right now and I don't think it is undeveloped at all. It has a Tonino reading of 99.
The one from the perforated drum has exactly the same Tonino reading (99).
Darn....I wish we could all be tasting it so we could compare....maybe it would taste undeveloped to you (any or all of you). It sure doesn't to me.
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As espresso? I have no doubt it would be massively bright as espresso- overpoweringly so. Perhaps it's just a difference in taste preference.
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As espresso? No. So far I have only had this brewed in the Technivorm, and although I am heating the Livia right now for a shot, it will be the base for a latte....
Ah....'bright'? That might be right.
'Undeveloped'? I don't think so with that Tonino reading; and there is no green or grass in it at all.
This recalls a recent conversation (I forget where, but maybe Rao's blog) that the real difference in how we like our roasts isn't so much the issue of brew vs espresso but milk vs no milk.
I'm a milk....:-))))
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Does insulating make a noticeable difference in heat retention? Does it take less power to maintain temp?
I might have a profile to compare
Early on here was a fairly lame effort to demonstrate what covering the holes did:
https://www.hukyforum.com/index.php/topic,706.msg7699.html#msg7699 (https://www.hukyforum.com/index.php/topic,706.msg7699.html#msg7699)
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As espresso? No. So far I have only had this brewed in the Technivorm, and although I am heating the Livia right now for a shot, it will be the base for a latte....
Ah....'bright'? That might be right.
'Undeveloped'? I don't think so with that Tonino reading; and there is no green or grass in it at all.
This recalls a recent conversation (I forget where, but maybe Rao's blog) that the real difference in how we like our roasts isn't so much the issue of brew vs espresso but milk vs no milk.
I'm a milk....:-))))
I tend to ignore what he says about espresso as I found my tastes are different than his. Using his style gives yielded shots that were kinda weak- great clarity but mild overall, lacking the body, depth and sweetness I get from using a slightly different approach (a lift in bean temp pre-first crack).
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The timings of the roast would lead to severe underdevelopment in my solid drum. If it doesn't in the perforated setup that is very interesting!
I don't find underdevelopment to my palate in these roasts. But Susan points out the challenge : I don't know if the acidity you and I perceive as excessive is too much. If there is nuance of flavor I think I probably don't mind quite a lot of acidity, and if the espresso or pourover coffee is lacking character and mostly acidic - too often grassy (yuck!) - then I call it underdeveloped.
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Yeah, grassy is easy to taste and not pleasant.
In espresso a nice small but distinct bit of brightness can be great- great Guats come to mind, but it's a fine line, at least for me. When I see a 4 minute dry time and 3 in the middle phase and dropped very shortly after first crack I can't imagine anything but overpowering acidity as espresso. Like a very bright Kenyas- good 3rd wave coffee, with lots of clarity and origin notes but lacking depth as espresso and I would expect grassy/sour notes, no speckled crema- a challenge to get a proper extraction even with a great grinder.
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When I see a 4 minute dry time and 3 in the middle phase and dropped very shortly after first crack I can't imagine anything but overpowering acidity as espresso.
I will add that to my list to try: compare this profile to the one you use. bean: Guatemala Xinabajul Santa Barbara. 4/3/2 drop temp 216C (as in this thread) vs 4:30/4/3 drop temp 212C with a little shove of heat a bit before onset 1st crack (yours, right?)
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I hope you like it :D
But maybe drop the beans after 2:30 of development, bean temp right around 417F. That should give you a nice full flavored dual use roast.
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I hope you like it :D
But maybe drop the beans after 2:30 of development, bean temp right around 417F. That should give you a nice full flavored dual use roast.
This may be an approximation of your technique. Best I could do, first try. Same bean:
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Really close! Amazingly close- kudos to you, first try and everything :D
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Really close! Amazingly close- kudos to you, first try and everything :D
I'll try to compare my memory of the now gone coffee at the start of the thread to the roast profiled after suggestions of GregR. The first taste was just now, a ristretto extraction on my office mate's Oscar. I like it. I would not say the acidity is really much less, still vibrant and the espresso has sweetness and chocolatey pop. Maybe the fruity character is a tad less. The aftertaste is nice, not roasty. The Urrao is a nice coffee and at this point I think both styles serve it well. I await Susan trying some I sent to her and giving us the Tonino count.
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I did not realize that Colombia Urrao appears to be yet available from SM: https://www.sweetmarias.com/product/colombia-urrao-valle-de-penderisco-5351 (https://www.sweetmarias.com/product/colombia-urrao-valle-de-penderisco-5351)
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If I didn't have way too much coffee now I'd buy some my cupboard overfloweth. Thanks for the feedback on the roast :)
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I await Susan trying some I sent to her and giving us the Tonino count.
The Tonino comes in at 90 compared to 99 for the two earlier roasts.
Although the drop temps are similar, the clone of GregR's profile is 2+ minutes longer, which I would guess accounts for it being that much darker.
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Interesting.
I pulled a ristretto this morning of the GregR style. I like it. Well developed but the lingering aftertaste has the coffee fruit taste, not a roasty taste which I sometimes get even from roasts that have a drop temp in this range.
I may try a Guatemala Huehue I have at these two different roast styles when I roast today, for another fun comparison.
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I'm amidst transferring from a solid to a perforated as well, so this topic really strikes my interest.
Regarding your individual results, I'll comment on the profile and how they affect what you're tasting:
-You'll see that you spent a lot more time in the drying phase in your perforated roasts. This leads to higher counts of fructose and sucrose (Sugars) early, leading to a sweeter taste.
-You indicated that your solid drum profile had more acidity than the others. This is surprising to me, because that profile shows a lot of time in the Maillard phase. Longer Maillard times typically yield less acidity and sweetness, and give way to more aroma development.
-When you compare different coffees, make sure that you do it through blind cupping or else systematic error, and recency bias tend to give way to misleading information.
Lastly, I have to ask how you get your ROR so high initially for your solid drum. I can barely coax my ROR curve to hit above 18-20 before descending. What fan speed do you use, and do you open or close the shutters on the bottom? At what time do you hit the jets on your curve?
Edit: Also do you find that your beans are noticeably darker in a solid drum even at the exact same Dev%, AUC and Drop Temp as the Perf?
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I'm amidst transferring from a solid to a perforated as well, so this topic really strikes my interest.
-When you compare different coffees, make sure that you do it through blind cupping or else systematic error, and recency bias tend to give way to misleading information.
Yes systematic cupping could be very useful. But there's that necessary 50 hours / week day job...
Lastly, I have to ask how you get your ROR so high initially for your solid drum. I can barely coax my ROR curve to hit above 18-20 before descending. What fan speed do you use, and do you open or close the shutters on the bottom? At what time do you hit the jets on your curve?
This regards solid drum. (I returned the perforated shortly after the original post here. I have an insulated setup, a metal plate suspended below the drum, but no shutters. (The perforated unit was on loan from Susan and it has perforation.) I set my fan to just draw - from the match testm - and raise it for 20 seconds at 195C (just before 1C) and back down. I usually fire the jets 30 seconds after charge. And my heat source is open flame.
Edit: Also do you find that your beans are noticeably darker in a solid drum even at the exact same Dev%, AUC and Drop Temp as the Perf?