Huky Forum
HUKY 500 (T, J, SOLID, PERF) => Roasting => Topic started by: SusanJoM on March 05, 2015, 04:00:17 PM
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https://hankua.wordpress.com/2014/09/28/huky-500-measuring-air-flow/
I was just reading your article about using the anenometer and before I dash off and order one, is there anything else I need or need to know?
Do you still recommend this as the way to calibrate a dimmer or a variac?
Will this work?
http://www.amazon.com/La-Crosse-Technology-EA-3010U-Anemometer/dp/B0002WZRKE
Susan
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https://hankua.wordpress.com/2014/09/28/huky-500-measuring-air-flow/
I was just reading your article about using the anenometer and before I dash off and order one, is there anything else I need or need to know?
Do you still recommend this as the way to calibrate a dimmer or a variac?
Will this work?
http://www.amazon.com/La-Crosse-Technology-EA-3010U-Anemometer/dp/B0002WZRKE
Susan
I would think this device would be great with a dimmer, but even better with the variac since people have reported that it does a better job at consistency. I'm curious to know if there's an option that would hook up to the Phidget. I see people in the Phidget community saying that there are anemometers compatible, but I haven't found one yet.
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I might have misunderstood, but I was interested in the anenometer as a way to calibrate the dimmer or the variac, not to be used in any ongoing fashion.
I think it would allow me to re-mark the Variac to indicate the % of actual air flow. I did the "match thing", but....all matches are not created equal :-(((( I want to have a better read on what the settings on my Variac translate to in terms of real air flow.
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I might have misunderstood, but I was interested in the anenometer as a way to calibrate the dimmer or the variac, not to be used in any ongoing fashion.
I think it would allow me to re-mark the Variac to indicate the % of actual air flow. I did the "match thing", but....all matches are not created equal :-(((( I want to have a better read on what the settings on my Variac translate to in terms of real air flow.
From what the specs say and some reviews on Amazon, that device would help you accomplish this task. Other Amazon reviews about that particular device scares me from having any desire to try this exact device. Since it's on Prime though, returning it should be easy if any of the issues people report hold true.
Personally, I like what this guy is doing with the Phidget. He's measuring airflow with Artisan and graphing it.
https://www.facebook.com/marko.luther/posts/10203050689281865
Probably best to wait for hankua to respond, eh? Would be better to get input from the genius behind the anenometer setup.
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Cool link, thanks. :)
Well, maybe not???
Now I want one of those :-))))
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Personally, I like what this guy is doing with the Phidget. He's measuring airflow with Artisan and graphing it.
"this guy" is Marko Luther himself, the developer of Artisan :-))))
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Personally, I like what this guy is doing with the Phidget. He's measuring airflow with Artisan and graphing it.
"this guy" is Marko Luther himself, the developer of Artisan :-))))
Shows how much I know about Artisan and coffee roasting. :-\
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Forget that.
I'm thinking that adding a Phidget 1126 (gas pressure reader http://www.phidgets.com/products.php?product_id=1126 ) and a Phidget 1136 (air pressure reader http://www.phidgets.com/products.php?product_id=1136) to the 1048 (temperature sensor http://www.phidgets.com/products.php?product_id=1048) which I already have, and coordinating both of themthem all through a 1018 (http://www.phidgets.com/products.php?product_id=1018) air pressure would be recorded without my having to push buttons or move sliders?????
Now that would be excellent. I gave up trying to record gas and air because I am not coordinated enough to make the changes AND record that I have made them.
Auto recording would be very cool.
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Forget that.
I'm thinking that adding a Phidget 1126 (gas pressure reader http://www.phidgets.com/products.php?product_id=1126 ) and a Phidget 1136 (air pressure reader http://www.phidgets.com/products.php?product_id=1136) to the 1048 (temperature sensor http://www.phidgets.com/products.php?product_id=1048) which I already have, and coordinating both of themthem all through a 1018 (http://www.phidgets.com/products.php?product_id=1018) air pressure would be recorded without my having to push buttons or move sliders?????
Now that would be excellent. I gave up trying to record gas and air because I am not coordinated enough to make the changes AND record that I have made them.
Auto recording would be very cool.
I agree with this idea. I'd like to think I am coordinated enough to mess with controls on the computer and control the roast at the same time, but I'm afraid of inputting data wrong by accident and not knowing. Spending the extra money for peace of mind sounds ideal to me. I'm all about automation. Profile creation would be more in depth, and in theory, I would think reproducing a profile would be easier.
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If you enter wrong info or just miss a data point it's no problem- Marko built in an editor so you can very easily enter the data after the roast is done.
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What about this anemometer?
http://www.amazon.com/MS6252A-Anemometer-Electronic-Measuring-Backlight/dp/B00F3SCSZY/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1425662330&sr=8-3&keywords=handheld+anemometer
My reading on the Phidget air pressure reader indicates that it might not like the environment I was considering. It seems to need the air to be cleaner than the chaffy, damp exhaust path would provide.
So....back to a manual test of the air flow provided by the various settings on my Variac.
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If you enter wrong info or just miss a data point it's no problem- Marko built in an editor so you can very easily enter the data after the roast is done.
You must roast like a pro to handle all that at one time. How does one go about getting some of your roasted coffee?
What about this anemometer?
http://www.amazon.com/MS6252A-Anemometer-Electronic-Measuring-Backlight/dp/B00F3SCSZY/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1425662330&sr=8-3&keywords=handheld+anemometer
My reading on the Phidget air pressure reader indicates that it might not like the environment I was considering. It seems to need the air to be cleaner than the chaffy, damp exhaust path would provide.
So....back to a manual test of the air flow provided by the various settings on my Variac.
Is there any place on the Huky where air is pulled through from the fan? Tracking pressure where chaff could effect sensors is something I never thought about. Is there any airflow from the bean hopper? Bummer.
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This is the inexpensive one I got. Very simple, but works fine to calibrate your dimmer/variac fan control. No need for an industrial one as I used it once for calibration, and never again.
http://www.amazon.com/COZYSWAN-Pocket-Digital-Anemometer-Thermometer/dp/B009QTGK3M/ref=pd_sim_hi_7?ie=UTF8&refRID=0J77N2T229KWT2DAP3JE
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This is the inexpensive one I got. Very simple, but works fine to calibrate your dimmer/variac fan control. No need for an industrial one as I used it once for calibration, and never again.
http://www.amazon.com/COZYSWAN-Pocket-Digital-Anemometer-Thermometer/dp/B009QTGK3M/ref=pd_sim_hi_7?ie=UTF8&refRID=0J77N2T229KWT2DAP3JE
I have an idea.
How about turning your Anemometer into a loaner?
I will pay for you to ship it to me and then anyone who wants it after me can pay for shipping it on???
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Susan, mine is the cheap one from Ebay. There's really no need to buy anything expensive, just a way to measure the relative air flow and mark your device. Now you can measure positive or negative airflow; I chose to measure negative airflow by suspending the j-pipe from the ceiling sans roaster. The Huky roaster was not part of the experiment, although I have measured airflow on a roaster with a Dwyer Magnehelic gauge. Fan, exhaust bowl, j-pipe, and anemometer were the only pieces used. But you could measure positive air pressure with everything hooked up and set the gauge over the exhaust stub on the bowl.
Why is this a worthwhile thing to do? Communication, that's why. Although our actual air pressures are going to be different due to exhaust pipe configuration, at least we can state our airflow setting in a meaningful way for others to copy.
Why try and re-invent the wheel? If Greg or Susan come up with a killer profile, the membership might want to try it out. Artisan charts are fantastic, but we need to know when/where to turn the gas/air knobs.
So if we all have a 0%, 25%, 50%, 75%, 100% air setting or something relatively close; its a whole lot easier to figure out. The other piece to the air is marking the stock gas gauge, unless you've upgraded like Susan.
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Forgot to mention Makomo got in touch with me about a twitter post on airflow.
He's using Phidget pressure sensors and a damper position sensor bridging to Artisan without any issues.
If someone is interested, sent him a PM thru HB - MaKoMo or invite him to join Hukyforum :)
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Exellent excellent excellent.
I am going to order an Anemometer and will loan it to other members if they want to borrow it after I've done my calibrating.
Even with the new gas gauge I did re-marking to make it easier to read.
And I am going to ask Marko (who is already a member of this forum) more about installing that Phidget air gizmo. I know he has used it with Artisan but I'm not sure he has used it with a HUKY and I'm not sure there is an appropriate place to install it on the HUKY. I will ask him....
Thanks for all that, Hank
Susa
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Susan, my wild guess is to drill/tap the fixed tube on the huky and install a fitting; no problem for the nearest machine shop. You're going to be measuring negative air pressure so heat should not be an issue.
For the gas gauge, the best bet is to let the "gas repairman" who installs stoves and heaters rig it up with a "T" connecting to the appropriate size rubber tubing coming from the sensor.
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Susan, my wild guess is to drill/tap the fixed tube on the huky and install a fitting; no problem for the nearest machine shop. You're going to be measuring negative air pressure so heat should not be an issue.
For the gas gauge, the best bet is to let the "gas repairman" who installs stoves and heaters rig it up with a "T" connecting to the appropriate size rubber tubing coming from the sensor.
LOL.
Guess it's time for me to figure out what the @#$%^& "negative air pressure" is, huh?
Also, since I will be using both HUKY's, I will want the air pressure testing to be on an exhaust tube that will be common to both, rather than on the HUKY body itself....
Oh I do love tinkering....:-))))
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If you enter wrong info or just miss a data point it's no problem- Marko built in an editor so you can very easily enter the data after the roast is done.
Okay, I've missed something then?
I know you can enter and alter events (charge, fc, drop), but is there a way to enter/change power and fan settings too?
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So, here's what I am imagining for my Phidget empire
Edit: so no one gets confused I am scratching out this schematic.
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Susan, my wild guess is to drill/tap the fixed tube on the huky and install a fitting; no problem for the nearest machine shop. You're going to be measuring negative air pressure so heat should not be an issue.
For the gas gauge, the best bet is to let the "gas repairman" who installs stoves and heaters rig it up with a "T" connecting to the appropriate size rubber tubing coming from the sensor.
LOL.
Guess it's time for me to figure out what the @#$%^& "negative air pressure" is, huh?
Also, since I will be using both HUKY's, I will want the air pressure testing to be on an exhaust tube that will be common to both, rather than on the HUKY body itself....
Oh I do love tinkering....:-))))
Susan, the best location for an air sensor input is between the fan and the drum, before the damper. That's why I thought the fixed pipe with the flange on the roaster might be a good spot. Using the drum faceplate probably won't work due to all the gaps and ventilation holes. On my 800n I was able to record negative air pressure in a similar location with a Dwyer Magnehelic 0-0.5 gauge.
And it depends what kind of tube/fitting you use. A flat fitting would read negative pressure, pitot tube would read positive pressure. The gauges are heat and dirt sensitive so the positive pressure has to be cool and clean. Then there's differential air pressure, which I don't think we need to be concerned with in our application.
What's happening inside the drum, the negative air pressure/flow is the gold standard for this kind of measurement. Giesen has a self adjusting air flow system along with a manual override. This is really clever, as the system gets dirty and airflow slows down, the fan increase speed to compensate. We can just toss out dirty pipes, not the case in a commercial setting with afterburners, stacks, filters, etc.
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That makes perfect sense.
I guess each HUKY body will need its own 1136
http://www.phidgets.com/products.php?product_id=1136
I'll revise my diagram.
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If you enter wrong info or just miss a data point it's no problem- Marko built in an editor so you can very easily enter the data after the roast is done.
Okay, I've missed something then?
I know you can enter and alter events (charge, fc, drop), but is there a way to enter/change power and fan settings too?
I think I found the answer to my own question.
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"I think I found the answer to my own question."
I just tried this for my last roast and I'm pretty sure I'm missing something as I entered the information but it isn't showing up on the profile. Any further info?
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I'll give it a try on my next roast. Just tried to do it with an old [saved] profile on my desktop computer and it didn't work.
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So, here's what I am imagining for my Phidget empire
Marko's input so far can be seen here,
https://www.facebook.com/marko.luther/posts/10203050689281865?comment_id=10204641870940412&offset=0&total_comments=32#_=_
and also here
http://www.home-barista.com/home-roasting/phidget-and-artisan-and-gas-and-air-pressures-t34759.html
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"I think I found the answer to my own question."
I just tried this for my last roast and I'm pretty sure I'm missing something as I entered the information but it isn't showing up on the profile. Any further info?
If it helps, I extracted that information from page 9 of this post at H-B
Perhaps there is more to be gleaned there
http://www.home-barista.com/home-roasting/artisan-version-7-0-t27999-80.html
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"I think I found the answer to my own question."
I just tried this for my last roast and I'm pretty sure I'm missing something as I entered the information but it isn't showing up on the profile. Any further info?
I just added air and gas post roast to an .alog file.
I'm guessing these are the two pages of Artisan that enable you to do that.
The first is the same one we already saw from the HB post.
The second is where the fan and the gas markers get defined.
And in the third can see I chose the circle for gas and the diamond for fan.
Edit: Note that you do have to re-save the profile after you make those additions. I didn't and mine all went by bye. Happily I have them in the notes I used to enter them back into the profile.
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Thanks Susan. I've been playing around with manualy entering events and have figured some of it out but still have glitches. The steps I've taken are as follows:
From Artisan - Roast - Properties - Events - Add - enter Time, Type and Value
From Artisan - Config -Events -click Show - change Bars to "Value"
Sliders - click what events you want to log, leave everything else as is
From this point, for what I'm doing Artisan shows fan and power settings but it does so square in the middle of the profile, not at at the bottom of the graph as I see others getting. Not sure what's going on. I tried to post a picture but have come down with a severe case of newbyitis in regards to this forum and can't seem to figure that one out as well. Any help with both would be appreciated.
My apologies for derailing this thread. Once I figure out how to post pictures I'll post some profiles to another thread to get some help there because at this point, although after about a dozen roasts I'm getting a better feel for this beautiful, little machine, I still feel like I'm floundering and could use some help.
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Ok. So there are ways to log this data automatically via phidgets and such. It seems like such the better way to go. I have so much to learn and in so many directions.
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lol... ain't that the truth for all of us.
I'll pm you and we can work on getting photos posted.
To be honest, connecting an anenmometer to Artisan held little interest for me but after re-reading this thread and what Hank said I see the light:
Why is this a worthwhile thing to do? Communication, that's why. Although our actual air pressures are going to be different due to exhaust pipe configuration, at least we can state our airflow setting in a meaningful way for others to copy.
Why try and re-invent the wheel? If Greg or Susan come up with a killer profile, the membership might want to try it out. Artisan charts are fantastic, but we need to know when/where to turn the gas/air knobs.
So if we all have a 0%, 25%, 50%, 75%, 100% air setting or something relatively close; its a whole lot easier to figure out. The other piece to the air is marking the stock gas gauge, unless you've upgraded like Susan.
I don't have a Phidget but if I can find my old anemometer I can include windspeed, which would be more meaningful than "50% on my dimmer"...
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My apologies for derailing this thread. I still feel like I'm floundering and could use some help.
No apologies necessary; the questions are the challenges that make this endeavor interesting. We are all figuring it out together.
Your question inspired me to figure out something I knew I wanted to be able to do but had been too lazy to figure out. I had a great day yesterday because you asked that question :-)))
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There are a few updates to my plan for the anemometer.
According to Marko, the 1048 (heat sensor) needs to be connected directly to the laptop, rather than routed through another Phidget.
And according to Brian Burley at Phidget, the 1011 might work. (http://www.phidgets.com/products.php?product_id=1011) rather than a 1018
I have contacted Marko to ask him about that, as it would reduce the cost of the parts by $30. which is good.
I will make a new schematic....later :-))
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Shocker- I found the anemometer- battery long dead but it uses the same ones as my bean scale so I was able to bring it to life. I removed the tryer and held the anemometer as flush as I could up against the opening and took some crude readings. With the fan at 100% it was about 2.8mph, on down to roughly 1.0mph with the dimmer at it's lowest setting (fan still turns). For what it's worth.
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If I'm understanding you correctly you mean the opening in the vented bowl- but I can't do that without removing the duct that I've got clamped on and it tears pretty easily. I just measured at the end of the duct right where it meets the fan opening in my range hood. At full power it's 6mph and at the lowest setting it's about 2mph. The resolution is only mph or kph with the old Brunton Sherpa I'm using so not too good.
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If I'm understanding you correctly you mean the opening in the vented bowl- but I can't do that without removing the duct that I've got clamped on and it tears pretty easily. I just measured at the end of the duct right where it meets the fan opening in my range hood. At full power it's 6mph and at the lowest setting it's about 2mph. The resolution is only mph or kph with the old Brunton Sherpa I'm using so not too good.
Actually I was thinking on top of the sieve under the exhaust tube, but I deleted that post because that can't be enough different from what is happening at the trier to matter....
What I'm curious about now is how mph relates to kPa, but...that's another rabbit hole altogether...
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I looked up the conversion, 1kpa = 4 inch wc. The SF75 at Bold Bean is using a Dwyer Magnehelic 0-1.0 wc with double inputs. My Mini500 in the exhaust plenum worked with a 0-0.5 wc Dwyer Magnehelic.
Best location for sensor is before the damper, closer to the drum. The SF75 has the inputs after the damper before the fan. When you open the damper the gauge drops, opposite of what's happening inside the drum. At least that's what I'm thinking. :o
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Here?
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I think it needs to go in an area where the pitot would be parallel with pipe.
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So, Hank, check out this post by Dregs at H-B. He is a few steps ahead of me and that is perfect :-))) I love having someone's footsteps to follow in !!!
http://www.home-barista.com/home-roasting/pressure-gauge-for-tj-067-t34955.html#p396556
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Most of my posts on this thread were prior to having my Huky delivered and setup. Now that I've seen it in the flesh and had a chance to play with the fan, I don't see any reason not to use a Phidget board / TC4 with an air pressure device. I think the biggest factor is deciding where to mount the airflow device. From what I've seen, my vote would also be as close to the exhaust port of the Huky's roasting chamber. In theory, I'd like to believe that having a measurement of how much air is being pulled from/through the drum would have the most accurate reading.
Another concern that I have now is that when the J pipe connected to the funnel on the exhaust fan , it doesn't seal completely. Even the wood handle on the J pipe doesn't seal completely. Have any of you guys taken any steps to seal the gap to ensure that the vacuum is tight? A lot of people report success with the Huky being bare bones like Mr. Li intends for it to be used, but I have this urge inside to close up any gaps in the exhaust system before the fan to make sure airflow responds when I alter it with the variac.
Aside from the cyclone mod, I'd like to hear about anyone else's ideas on the standard exhaust system. The cyclone mod is the only thing I've stumbled across in my research.
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I could have this all wrong, but I don't think airtightness is an issue.
I suspect the reason my anemometer readings and Aarons are so different is that my system is not airtight.
I just positioned the anemometer where the arrow is on the picture and took readings at each Variac setting.
But it doesn't matter because it will be equally un-airtight at every setting of the Variac, so all I am really wanting to know is what % of the full draw is being exerted at each setting.
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I could have this all wrong, but I don't think airtightness is an issue.
I suspect the reason my anemometer readings and Aarons are so different is that my system is not airtight.
I just positioned the anemometer where the arrow is on the picture and took readings at each Variac setting.
But it doesn't matter because it will be equally un-airtight at every setting of the Variac, so all I am really wanting to know is what % of the full draw is being exerted at each setting.
Interesting. Something just bugs me about taking readings with an anemometer at this location. I'd think the fan will suck air from anywhere possible, including loose joints within the Huky exhaust. I think I'm just going to have to swallow whatever logic my brain is attempting to force feed me and trust you on this one.
Also, I'm pretty sure I'll be following pursuit right behind you on getting the air pressure gauge setup. I like how Marko provided solutions for avoiding debris and keeping the temperature low enough for the sensor. I haven't even started roasted yet and I'm already having a hard time swallowing the idea of having to adjust the variac, PLUS having to modify events in Artisan. Since I can already picture miscommunication between my girlfriend and I using this roaster, it would be really convenient to have all the important data to just feed in without having requiring human input.
Thank you all for the feedback, and thank you Susan for documenting your roadmap. Your research is a great deal of help with my plans moving forward.
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I think I'm just going to have to swallow whatever logic my brain is attempting to force feed me and trust you on this one.
This would be a huge mistake ;D
I am speculating and testing and reporting, but have NO caveats..... ;D ;D ;D
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Just a thought since the air pressure sensor can't be used with propane. Instead of measuring gas pressure via the gas feed / line, I'm thinking about looking into measuring gas output near the burner. I found a gas sensor that seems like it might do the trick, but I'm not sure about how a) it will work with Artisan and b) how to hook it up to a Phidget / TC4. I imagine there's a way to make this work, but it might require some wiring though.
Here are the sensors that might work:
http://playground.arduino.cc/Main/MQGasSensors
Here's one of the gadgets (not sure if this is the exact one to use or not):
http://www.seeedstudio.com/wiki/Electronic_brick_-_Gas_sensor%28MQ5%29
A short video showcasing how it can be used:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIf_mpnsZvY
(Skip to 6:35 if it's too boring for you.)
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I've decided that recording gas pressures directly to Artisan is probably not in my future until/unless Phidget makes a sensor for that purpose.
Hopefully someone else is more ambitious than I am.
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The Phidget 1136 is here and seems to need 3/16" tubing for its ports.
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The Phidget 1136 is here and seems to need 3/16" tubing for its ports.
Awesome. Have you installed the pipe in the exhaust yet? I'm antsy to see how this works out for you. I'm also curious where you end up installing it.
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The Phidget 1136 is here and seems to need 3/16" tubing for its ports.
Awesome. Have you installed the pipe in the exhaust yet? I'm antsy to see how this works out for you. I'm also curious where you end up installing it.
This is being a slow project. Today I sourced the 1/4" copper tubing and a bender, but I really can't/won't do any more for a bit. I have asked Mr Li to send me a couple of extra ports, and until they are here I can't really proceed.
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Hello I am using a router speed control for controlling my exhaust fan. I finally got around to getting the anemometer and measuring the changes in air speed based on the "speed Bully" speed control.
To my dismay, the lowest setting on the speed control only resulted in 50% of air flow 9.2 m/s max versus 4.5 m/s Min. Below is a photo of the unit I am using.
My Question is to anyone who has a variac and has measured with an anemometer. Are you able to reduce the fan speed further than 50% using a Variac?
If the Variac offers a broader range of control - I will be sending my speed bully back and getting a Variac ASAP!
Thanks
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Here is what I found with the Variac
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...
If the Variac offers a broader range of control - I will be sending my speed bully back and getting a Variac ASAP!
...
Thanks
You will (probably) not get a broader useable range, but, again probably get more precise and repeatable control. That Speed Bully seems OK though.
Being more precise, some Variacs does give a little boost, e.g. 110V boosted to 130V, but what you need is rather more control to get repeatable in the low and mid range, say setting values like 20%, 40%, 50% ...
Another part of the whole air system is getting the system air tight. I.e. not having small leaks. If the funnel and sieve doesn't sit tight on the exhaust fan, a lot of air is getting in there instead of being sucked out of the roaster...
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My experience is different from Bjorn's, as the chart above shows.
My Variac doesn't boost my fan's capacity. It does, however, allow me to reduce the fan's output to about 16% of its maximum.
In my recent roasts I use that 16% (26 on the Variac) from the start of warmup until the end of First Crack.
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Ok,
Went and bought a Variac - did the measurements without taping the screen to the fan and then again with duct tape around the base of the screen, sealing the gap. The chart below shows my results. Conclusion: Variac is better for adjusting the airflow than the speed control.
I can modulate the airflow better and more reliably than before. Now back to roasting!
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After working through the stops on the Variac, I went back and calculated 10% increments from 10% through 100% in M\s, and marked them on the variac so now I have an accurate 10 - stop scale for fan speed/Airflow. Ahhh the geekery...
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After working through the stops on the Variac, I went back and calculated 10% increments from 10% through 100% in M\s, and marked them on the variac so now I have an accurate 10 - stop scale for fan speed/Airflow. Ahhh the geekery...
Good job! Doing the measurements brings some clarity to the air flow aspect. Along with the heat control, air speed lets you fine tune profile/ROR on the approach to 1C.
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Good job! Doing the measurements brings some clarity to the air flow aspect. Along with the heat control, air speed lets you fine tune profile/ROR on the approach to 1C.
Thanks! I also did the lighter test that Scott Rao recommended in his book with the variac and was able to find the spot where negative pressure begins, which was impossible on the speed bully because the fan was too fast at the lowest setting.
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Hi all,
though i'm still eager waiting for my Huky 500T, i'm yet planing which mods i might implement :)
Surely i will attach either a dimmer or a variac to the fan. More likely a dimmer, as an appropriate variac is obviously quite hard to find in europe :-\ maybe on alibaba...
I'm already owning an Amprobe TMD-56 which i'd like to replace with a Phidget 1048 - i like minimalism 8)
This also led me to this thread and i'm fascinated, what you guys did with those phidgets.
I could imagine to buy one 1036 and 1011 myself to measure air presure.
@SusanJoM
Did you already attach that 1036 to your Huky? Where did you install the probe and how does it work for you? Is it worthwhile?
Thank you very much!
Greetings from Germany :)
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@SusanJoM
Did you already attach that 1036 to your Huky? Where did you install the probe and how does it work for you? Is it worthwhile?
Ah, no....
I have all the bits and pieces but haven't put them together.
I haven't decided WHICH HUKY to put it into among other things....
And I'm more than a bit nervous about drilling a hole into the HUKY too, so I have all the materials stashed away where I can't see them and be reminded of my failure to proceed :-(((
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I'll have to go back and look at the 1036, but the damper pin holes migh be a location for a sensor. My question, is it going to work without a pitot tube or not. The air pressure sensors are heat sensitive and would get gummed up going positive; negative pressure solves both althought a filter can be used as well.
Probably need to fix a temporary location, a short extension pipe using aluminum foil and wire or a piece of roof flashing taped or glued into a cylinder. A pitot tube can be made with a small automotive tubing bender and compression fittings to fit the pipe.
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So this project has been resurrected. I'm still not sure where I'm gonna put the sensor for the 1136, but I'm inclined to put it into the exhaust, primarily because I have a spare....so if it all goes south I haven't put a hole into a piece I can't replace.
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Well the hardware part of this is gonna take me some more futzing, but at least Artisan is ready:
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I'll have to go back and look at the 1036, but the damper pin holes migh be a location for a sensor.
So how would you go about getting the damper pins out?
Could I cut the outside part of the pin with bolt cutters? Probably too hard, right???
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My damper is a bit dirty, it looks to be tack welded inside. The way I'd approach it would be to take the J pipe to a welding shop/machine shop and have them remove the assembly and the damper boss. Then weld in a threaded insert to fit the sensor/pitot tube and fill in the opposing hole.
That would also improve the air flow, removing the damper restriction. Assuming one does not ever use the damper.
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Excellent plan....Thanks Hankua ! ! !
The only time I use the damper these days is to facilitate the coughing up/out of beans post drop. I think I can do without that function just fine; there are other ways to do that....
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All righty then. This rig is ready for the welding shop. I will go there tomorrow and see if I can get this put together....
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One question: the USB plug is part of the 1036?
Or something additional ?
Comment: Removing the damper has double benefit, as any turbulences should be minimized nearby pressure measurement.
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The USB in the picture is the 1011
http://www.phidgets.com/products.php?product_id=1011
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Thanks.
A hint if you need: you can easily bend a thin pipe if you use a saddle, stepwise.
A 12" pot, a 8" pot, 4", 2", if you need.
With an insert, e.g. a rod, you are on the save side.
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Hello Susan,
What are you going to do with the second line of the 1036?
Just leave it open to environment?
(Sorry, if I missed it somewhere)
Peter
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I think just open. But I haven't yet tried the whole contraption, so I can't be sure.
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I don't know about experience with this on roasters.
I am afraid that with a full Huky it will show more underpessure (while less airflow)
and with chaff on the fan it may show overpressure. Second case is worse, as it not predictable.
But you will now soon.
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Marko Luther has posted both on Facebook and at H-B that he used this set-up successfully, so I am hopeful. I have never had a very good idea of how the fan/air was actually working; it would be instructive to see. Also I will be able to use it on both the solid and the perforated drum HUKYs to see if/as/how they differ.
Anyway....tinkering is so much fun ;D
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So my exhaust tube came home from the welding shop this morning.
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nice job done :)
I am sure, when it comes to the point for me to try something similar , it will be more a tinkering version.
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There is one serious flaw in my design.
The tubing gets attached to that copper pipe (after the tape is removed), and it is thin and flexible to the point that it bends right over. Something has to be rigged up to keep the tubing from crimping and blocking the air/sensor corridor.....
I still don't have the formulas right in Artisan, but I'm working on it...
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Is the issue the flexable tubing or the copper tubing?
If it's the flexable tubing there's a semi-rigid or semi-flexible tubing that doesn't kink. Same product you would use running water lines for a filter or espresso machine.
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Thanks, Hank. I have a wire suspended from another wire holding the silicone tubing from kinking :-))))
Can anyone tell me whether there is a diameter of the copper tube that goes to > silicone tube > Phidgets 1136 that would be required ? Does it have to have a specific relationship to the diameter of the whole exhaust tube (2"); and/or is that dependent on the kPa levels involved?
Here's a rough sketch of what I'm trying to figure out.
The current copper tubing I have inserted is 1/8", and I'm not getting any readings, although I have ascertained that the 1136 is working and that Artisan is getting data from it, so I'm thinking it has to be in the hardware side of the equation.
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The current copper tubing I have inserted is 1/8", and I'm not getting any readings, although I have ascertained that the 1136 is working and that Artisan is getting data from it, so I'm thinking it has to be in the hardware side of the equation.
What does it mean "not getting any readings"?
a) no signal coming in?
b? you get just a signal line "constant 0 mbar" - no pressure change?
In case b): How deep is your 1/8" in the J-pipe.
I believe that it should be minimum down to the middle of the elbow - better deeper.
I just did some quick test with a flexibel hose through the top-hole of the T-pipe and the max. value I reached was 0.48 mbar. Not so much. Having the open end not really in the flow limited the value ~0.1 mbar
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In case b): How deep is your 1/8" in the J-pipe.
I believe that it should be minimum down to the middle of the elbow - better deeper.
Well, wouldn't you know that I just cut my only piece of 1/8" copper tubing so that it is even shorter. I'll order a longer piece.
But check the picture. There is no elbow after the tube. It enters AT the elbow.
I don't speak 'mbar'. What is that? I'm using kPa.
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I made some quick measures in the T-pipe with my new Extech HD755 0 - 0.5psi (35mbar - 3.5kPa).
(https://up.picr.de/29907071qk.jpg)
The maximum value was around 0.48mbar (0.048kPa), with full speed, no chaff on the sieve, fixing the funnel by hands to reduce leakages.
(https://up.picr.de/29907069lc.jpg)
The hoses were inserted as far as possible. If the tip is not passing the elbow, the values drop significantly I tried with one hose direction fan and with two hoses - one in each direction.
(http://up.picr.de/29907068ro.jpg)
I started with some chaff from the last roast on the sieve
The max value then was only 0.22mbar. After removing the chaff it increased up to 0.44mbar. ( 0.044kPa)
My idea with the second hose was to compensate effect of the chaff, but this did not really work. Generally the values decreased with the second hose.
Any attempt to simulate beans in the drum did not cause any change.
50% power at my dimmer is around 75% of pressure (which is also not linear to airflow).
0.4mbar is not so much. 0.4cm water column. I expected more, but without background, just a feeling.
( I hope my unit conversions are right )
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That is very helpful.
At some point in my fidgeting around (pun intended), it seemed to me that readings indicated flow from .1 to .6 kPa, so I think I am on the right track at least.
I am going to order a new longer piece of the 1/8"OD copper tubing to see if having it extend as far down towards the fan as possible helps.
So my next question is a mathematical one.
If you have .1, .2, .3, .4, .5, and .6 as readings, what formula would translate them to percentages, given that .1 really is 0% and .6 is 100% ????
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I ended up with a 0-0.50 Dwyer Magnehelic gauge from EBay, and the smaller range 0-0.25 version would have been better or had more needle swing. That's in inchs of water column.
Did this with my 800n without a pitot tube, just measuring from an open port in the plenum air exhaust. If the internet conversions are correct .48 millibar worked out to .19" wc.
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The weak point of the soft flexible hose I used, is that it is laying aside the pipe wall. I hope to get higher values after fixing it in the center of the pipe as there should be more flow.
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Looking at my Huky I realized that the T-pipe is made of of two pieces, so that it is possible to install an additional piece of pipe in between. Maybe 10cm to 20cm.
Then I can drill many holes in it for several testing positions for the hose-tip without ruining my original Huky piece. Even a simple version of a venturi seems to be possible.
Then I found that the plexiglas pipe I used for the exhaust elbow of the transparent model has the needed dimension. So if I am lucky it might be possible to have transparent test setup to find the best probe setup.
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I continued "my little PHD" ;) and made more systematic tests to understand the different version of pressure measuring at the Huky and to get higher results as the signal level was not so much higher than the nominal potential error of the hardware. This is around 0.011 kPA for the Extech and is somehow similar for the Phidget 1036 version.
This here is quit different compared to the gas pressure task. There the pressure is around 30mBar // 3kPa. For fan pressure it much less, about a factor of 20 to 50.
For a single measurement point - either under-pressure or overpressure I ended up around 0.43 mbar // 0.043kPa // 43Pa.
This can be doubled by a combination - adding up both to a differential pressure.
The result at each point can be doubled, by using simplified "aerodynamics parts" in the style of a venturi or pitot pipe. Here this acts mainly by local reduction of effective cross section of the pipe. As the Huky fan has lots of power, a minimal reduction in flow seems to be easily acceptable. Don't worry about geometry details of my parts. I didn't either.
Just remember, as found the last days, all values may divide by half, as soon as there is some chaff on the sieve of the fan as it is often at the end of the roast!
Considering this it makes double sense to give more power to the fan at the end of the roast.
All values on the Extech are at full power of the fan and in mbar.
I left mbar as in kPa I would have lost one digit on the screen
( e.g.: 0,43mbar would be shown as 0.04kPa ) = 4.3mm water column, or ~0.17" wc
Pictures (part 1)
0) My first try to measure air pressure in the exhaust in water column, about one year ago - without any visible results
0)
(http://thumbs.picr.de/29931074mx.jpg) (http://show.picr.de/29931074mx.jpg.html)
1 + 2) I made a plexiglass pipe. Inner diameter 34mm, which just fit as a coupling.
And bent a short piece of a 3mm brass with pliers. (Aluminum pipe broke always)
1)
(http://thumbs.picr.de/29931076dg.jpg) (http://show.picr.de/29931076dg.jpg.html)
2)
(http://thumbs.picr.de/29931077im.jpg) (http://show.picr.de/29931077im.jpg.html)
3) With the opening of the 3mm pipe towards Huky: 0.20mbar // 0.02kPA
3)
(http://thumbs.picr.de/29931078wm.jpg) (http://show.picr.de/29931078wm.jpg.html)
4) Opening to the fan: 0.43mbar // 0.043kPA
4)
(http://thumbs.picr.de/29931079wu.jpg) (http://show.picr.de/29931079wu.jpg.html)
5) Then I made a maximum test and pluged the pipe with some foil, to see the under-pressure the Huky + funnel + leakages can produce: 0.63mbar // 0.063kPa. Not so much more.
5)
(http://thumbs.picr.de/29931080wx.jpg) (http://show.picr.de/29931080wx.jpg.html)
6) Then I cut a standard rubber gasket from a sewage pipe to length to set it inside the pipe to reduce the cross-section. A simple form of venturi. It is very relevant where the opening of the pipe is related to the venturi. It is some mm behind the front of the gasket.
6)
(http://thumbs.picr.de/29931081hm.jpg) (http://show.picr.de/29931081hm.jpg.html)
7)
The under-pressure increased to 0.88mbar // 0.088kPa.
In real life the part must be made from metal due to the temperature.
Aluminum or stainless steel.
7)
(http://thumbs.picr.de/29931083ew.jpg) (http://show.picr.de/29931083ew.jpg.html)
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So, Peter, you and I seem to be approaching this air pressure project from different angles.
Here's where I have gotten to.
What does it mean "not getting any readings"?
....no signal coming in?
It turns out that 'not getting any readings' had nothing to do with the hardware and everything to do with the software.
Here's what I can now see in Artisan when I make adjustments to the fan speed
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So, Peter, you and I seem to be approaching this air pressure project from different angles.
Yes, that is because within engineering / mechanics I know quite well what I am doing and it is fun for me.
Regarding programming anything in Artinsan, I am still waiting for my first success and therefore shy to start it. And I have to start from the very beginners level.
That is why I (also) bought the Extech, so that I can directly see the results, but have also the option to implement it into Artisan.
I am happy to see results from your meassurements and that the pressure level seems to be high enough for processing.
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During brainstorming with a friend I came aware that alternatively // additionally to the under-pressure the pressure behind the fan could be used.
Similar to venturi, I made sort of a pitot pipe adapter to increase the measured values in the outlet of the bowl underneath the fan.
8)
(http://thumbs.picr.de/29931406qz.jpg) (http://show.picr.de/29931406qz.jpg.html)
With a combination of venturi and pitot adapter, and measuring the differential pressure between both it gave 1.71mbar // 0.71kPa. ( about 2 x 2 x 0.43 )
The maximum value I ever got in this game - with the maximum of effort.
9)
(http://thumbs.picr.de/29931408xi.jpg) (http://show.picr.de/29931408xi.jpg.html)
To check the setup for somebody who doesn't, or doesn't want to do all this,
I then checked version with reduced effort.
This is both locations, but without "venturi" or "pitot" installed: 0.83mbar // 0.083kPa
10)
(http://thumbs.picr.de/29931411cj.jpg) (http://show.picr.de/29931411cj.jpg.html)
As the insert in the fan-bowl is quiet easy, and the insert in the hot Huky-exhaust might be complicated, the next test was without "venturi". 1.31mbar // 0.131kPa
11)
(http://thumbs.picr.de/29931416uf.jpg) (http://show.picr.de/29931416uf.jpg.html)
The easiest version - just to work on the outlet of the fan-bowl,
including the "pitot" shows 0.84mbar // 0.084kPa.
12)
(http://thumbs.picr.de/29931420wv.jpg) (http://show.picr.de/29931420wv.jpg.html)
13)
(http://thumbs.picr.de/29931423xu.jpg) (http://show.picr.de/29931423xu.jpg.html)
No need to touch the exhaust pipe at all
and it seems that the results are as reasonable as the originally intended version.
This solution is quiet different from what I expected at the beginning.
It seems that I am approaching to the point to try to implement the Extech into Artisan to record the pressure --- and later then how to control the fan.
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I tried to calculate the real air flow curve from the pressure curve by Bernouilli equation and so.
But I did neither liked nor believed my own results.
Then I went for a foul-proved test and blowed-up a big garbage bag several times (nominal 120 liter) and recorded the time. As a result I can say that from the minimum stable speed and it can be linear interpolated:
~3 liter per second at 25% of maximum pressure recorded (at 25% power at my dimmer)
~8 liter per second at 70% // 75% of maximum pressure recorded (at 50% power at my dimmer) .
From 50% to 100% power at my dimmer the fan speed increased, it got louder and it seemed like more power. Also the measured pressure still increased, but I had no change in filling time of my garbage bag. That means the air flow did not increase any more.
I'll have to go and double check for leakages, because in real life roasting there is a clear difference visible in Artisan if my dimmer is on 50%, 75% or at full power.
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Susan
Looks like you got air pressure sensor working?
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It's still a work in progress.
The hardware works and the software works.
My programming still needs some work.
Unfortunately for demonstration purposes, I don't actually use the fan control during the roast. It seems that it's only function for me is to tame the fan.
And that confuses me a tad, since without changing the air controller setting even once during the roast, the indication is that the pressure is declining. Chaff? I wondered, but no; it starts right at the beginning of the roast.
So, I'm messing with it periodically.
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Could you make an emty reference"roast" ?
Just recording the heating process to see the effect of changing air density with temperature?
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Do you mean just doing that roast from a few threads up without any beans?
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Did you have this effects at multiple roasts? repeatable?
... without beans there will be no drop at filling in...
My idea would be to heat up the Huky from cold to full temperature just without changing the fan power (maybe at 50% ?)
In the second step you could run the fan at full power and switch off the stove to cool it down.
This is to see if the measured flow seem to change somehow dependent from temperature.
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Like this?
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What I see is only the heating-up (?), but it correlates to my idea of physics.
The dynamic pressure ( acc. Bernoulli, ...) is related to the density of the medium, which is reverse proportional to absolute temperature. (and other side effects)
273°K + 17° = 290°K
273°K + 87° = 360°K
273°K +207° = 480°K
So the density is reduced to 290 / 480 = 60%, 360 / 480 = 75%,
which fits somehow to the reduction of air flow of "160 down to 130" on your plot.
But the decrease in your first plot is much more. So here some brainstorming:
Any leakage? Especially the lower end connection of your flexible plastic hose to the hot copper tube. Check at hot condition.
Really no chaff, or just less than expected? At my accidental try run this was more relevant than I expected
Could you also post a photo of your setup showing the path of the flexible hose
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Here is the picture of the mess.
And a .png with the bottom of the graph that shows the rest of the plunge.
I'm sure there are lots of leaks and lots of ways this could be tweaked for the science, but for my purposes I'm quite done with it. The only other thing I will do one day is to run the same tests on the perforated drum; that's my real interest and I haven't gotten there yet.
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Hello Susan,
don't call it a mess ;D
I may not look as smart as you wish, but at least you solved the critical issue of slope of the flexible hose perfectly:
It is not straigh upwards - to avoid to much hot air climbing to the phidget, and
the connection to the phidget is not downwards - to avoid potential condensating water driping into the phidget.
So the syphon you built is a good basis to keep the phidget alive for a long time.
And you have it connected to Artisan to record the air pressure / air flow without pushing buttons - or forgeting it from time to time ;)
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Looks like its working to me; how does the readings vary from the lowest settting to the highest?
With the actual vacuum readings, you can re-program the buttons to the lowest settings used to the highest ones and calculate the %.