3rd Huky Roasting Competition Discussion

[Daave]

Couldn't we just use the normal SCAA scoring system?

https://www.scaa.org/?page=resources&d=cupping-protocols

Sweet Marias uses this score on their coffees as well. They show it in the pictures of their coffees. For example, this one got a 86.9: https://www.sweetmarias.com/product/costa-rica-alaska-lote-el-llano

[kenneroast]

I think it makes sense to borrow as much as we can from an existing system that people understand. If Sweet Maria's uses it, it makes even more sense. The only thing that might need to be clear is if we're roasting by SCAA standards. Don't they have bylaws about roast times and controlled variables? I'd prefer not to conform to this personally. It seems more enjoyable to encourage people to creatively roast the coffee on their Huky.

[Daave]

Good point. If Sweet Maria's thinks it makes sense to do this, I'd propose that we use the SCAA scoring system but roast however we want to.

[SusanJoM]

I like ContrabassBry's suggestion, however, that all roasts take place on the same day.   We all know that roasts change dramatically as the days go by.   The playing field should at least be that level.

[Contrabass Bry]

In all fairness, that was Daave's idea.

I really like where this is going. It was something I was curious about in our last session.
It's still got some subjetivity (allowing us to roast how WE want), but at the same time providing some structure as to how they are being evaluated.

I'm all for it, as this will help everyone understand where the strengths and weaknesses in thier submission reside.

[SusanJoM]

In all fairness, that was Daave's idea.

I really like where this is going. It was something I was curious about in our last session.
It's still got some subjetivity (allowing us to roast how WE want), but at the same time providing some structure as to how they are being evaluated.

I'm all for it, as this will help everyone understand where the strengths and weaknesses in thier submission reside.

Oops, sorry Daave :-))))
Good idea ....

[hankua]

Check out this video:
http://tampertantrum.podbean.com/e/cup-north-2015-fuck-cupping-colin-harmon/?token=7aaed7673011cec578452c84ba65b2db

I'm for doing away with cupping and transitioning to brewing for evaluating our roasts. Cupping is for sampling green coffee and may or may not reflect how the roast does with drip or espresso. Do you cup your coffee or check it out with espresso/drip?

Maybe that's not possible this time, but it's something to think about?

SCAA scoring is more about coffee than roasting; some of our members are looking for feedback on their submissions. That's why I'm advocating a scorecard for roasting that has integrated feedback.

For instance if a member is baking his roasts and doesn't realize it or not baked all the way thru the bean (underdeveloped); that's should be scored and noted on the form.

After two years of getting monthly Mistobox samples (4 each month), I've come to the conclusion the majority of US artisan roasters have what I would characterize as balanced roasts. Somewhere between first and second crack, with more development than a super bright light roast.

What I'm advocating is shifting the scoring a little bit to the right, to represent where our members are ending up. Maybe development should be a category as well?

[Daave]

SCAA scoring is more about coffee than roasting; some of our members are looking for feedback on their submissions. That's why I'm advocating a scorecard for roasting that has integrated feedback.

Good point. I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

Oops, sorry Daave :-))))
Good idea ....

Thanks! I like the idea of having a target roast date this round. Last time there were some submissions that were super fresh while others were weeks old. Anything we can do to remove some variables between submissions while still giving people the opportunity for creativity is a good thing.

[Curtis Martin]

Great points Hank.
One way to do it is to have a Defects category and break it down into say, over development, under development, baked, sour/hay, roasty, The defects can be assigned negative points that take away from the positive points earned in the other categories.
And the other categories? Body, brightness, balance, sweetness, origin notes,

I agree with you Greg and Hank! I'd love to get some scoring involved. I'd personally like to get the whole list scored. I fight for last pretty well right now and I'd like to know if I won! lol. The way Greg describes the defects would greatly help myself bring that back to the table and roast better.

I am also in as a contestant! These are the BEST!!! So much fun!!!

You guys rock!

P.S. Any other Oregonians out there?

[kenneroast]

Before we get too far ahead of ourselves about the scoring system, I think we need to make sure it's not overly difficult for Sweet Maria's to follow the procedure. Whatever rules we want the scoring to be done by needs to be a clear and concise format. The closer to a standard cupping evaluation that they're comfortable with, I'd like to think the more smooth things will be. I'm a big fan of simplicity.

This might also imply that they will stick to cupping the samples. I don't feel comfortable demanding them to use alternative brew methods to evaluate our roasts. Currently there are 14 people interested in submitting a sample, and that number could grow. Brewing 14 different roasted samples alternatively from the standard cupping to give us feedback might be a bit much to ask of them. I see no harm in asking if they're open to this, but I think it would be wise not to demand or count on it happening that way.

Let's not forget they are doing us a solid by putting time aside for us, and I believe it would be considerate of us to recognize that.

Back to business..

hankua (or anyone else), do you have ideas on how we might be able to modify the SCAA evaluation form to fit our needs? It seems that we could easily modify this system to suit our goals.

Attached is the form used for scoring coffee. Would it be wise to add some suggestion areas on the form and see if Sweet Maria's accepts the format?

[hankua]

OK so here's what I've come up with so far; and I don't think its' unfair to ask the judges to use our specific form providing its fairly simple (which the SCAA is not)

I've got the SCAA Coffee Cuppers Handbook (don't ever use) and inside are two Coffee Taster's Flavor Wheels. One has Taints & Faults and the other Tastes & Aromas. Tastes and Aromas could be two categories and could cover flavor, aroma, aftertaste, acidity.

Acidity is a specific category as is sweetness. Those two could be included in the taste category as they're represented already.

Balance is one I would favor and Body could be added to it. Balance/Body. (Uniformity is pretty close to balance)

Sometimes we get some unwanted (weird) aftertastes; Clean Cup could cover those areas.

I'm still favoring Underdevelopment and Overdevelopment as categories as they give us feedback on roast profiling mistakes.

Some folks use a cuppers correction, might be useful to cover some unknown area.

Here's what I come up with so far for categories, scored 1-5 with a comment section below.

1. Taste 1-5
2. Aroma 1-5
3. Balance/Body 1-5
4. Clean Cup 1-5
5. Underdevelopment 1-5 (with 5 being the least amount)
6. Overdevelopment 1-5 (with 5 being the least amount)
cuppers correction +1, 0, -1

If the roast does not have any underdevelopment or overdevelopment; that leaves only 4 areas to judge with a correction if necessary.

[kenneroast]

Here's what I come up with so far for categories, scored 1-5 with a comment section below.

1. Taste 1-5
2. Aroma 1-5
3. Balance/Body 1-5
4. Clean Cup 1-5
5. Underdevelopment 1-5 (with 5 being the least amount)
6. Overdevelopment 1-5 (with 5 being the least amount)
cuppers correction +1, 0, -1

If the roast does not have any underdevelopment or overdevelopment; that leaves only 4 areas to judge with a correction if necessary.

This sounds awesome. Would taste account for origin characteristics?

[hankua]

Yes
Here's the flavor wheels
Of course Origin Notes could be a category as well.

[JavaBuzz]

A couple things to think about (from an often over-analyzers's perspective):

If brewing coffee for comparison, you need a method that can be done consistently the same on multiple samples. This basically leaves immersion or a very consistent automatic method (Mochamaster, etc.). Something like pourover would be too inconsistent, as well as many cheap drip machines. This is one reason cupping is used for evaluating: cheap and can be made pretty consistent between samples.

The most consistent scoring method is the method judges are most comfortable with using/have been trained to use/have used to grade many other coffees. This may or may not be the SCAA system. If a new system is suggested, the likelihood of an error in grading/judgment could increase. Kind of like trying to force everyone to switch to the metric system when they're used to the English system: metric might be (in general) a better system, but people are going to have trouble with it and make mistakes if they aren't familiar with it.

I do like the idea of trying to have everyone roast on the same day. However, finding a day where a large group of people all have time available to roast that same day could prove difficult. Maybe give a 3-5 day window with a suggested "best" day?

Just some random thoughts; feel free to do with them as you see fit.

A 3rd friendly competition with Sweet Maria's as the sponsor sounds very interesting to me as well!

[JavaBuzz]

One thing that could be helpful to all to request (and relatively easy for judges to accommodate): ask the judges to evaluate the beans before grinding and note possible roast defects.